I was wondering if I could ask you a question. Have you ever thought upon the real names of The Father and of Messiah? Do you ever use the real names Yahweh and Yahshua, and do you feel they are important to speak them?
Have you ever studied that the name Jesus is a Greco-Latin hybrid name that has no meaning and that the titles GOD and LORD have their etymology in paganism?
In His name, Jere
Hi Jere : ) Sure, I call Him by all of the above, but I’m also not burdened (as a human illustration) by whether MY personal name is translated or pronounced differently—in every country I’ve ever been in. I don’t care HOW it’s pronounced. (And I enjoy the KJV okay, too, but am not bound by that translation. Same issue, really, if you can see the connection. It’s subtle.) If we're REALLY going to take that line (of going back to the Hebrew word, or the like), we’re not allowed to pronounce it or spell it out AT ALL, right? That was how Israel handled it. They couldn’t say the word AT ALL! : ) I do understand the question, and your reason for asking. I’m not sure exactly how to answer, except to say that I’m sensitive to it (not oblivious), but I really don’t have the sense that Father, or His Son, are concerned with human language, and particularly not WHICH human language, we tell Him we love Him in, or honor His words. After all, HE chose KOINE GREEK, of all things, in which to write the NT! Why not HEBREW, or at least the language that JESUS spoke in daily life??!! To use a pagan language, the root of many of the false gods, violence, pride, conquest, prejudice, on and on…for the BIBLE? Why did God do THAT??!! It wasn’t the language GOD used with His people originally, but…it was. And the KJV—from the LATIN? Wow. The Romans were PATHETICALLY vulgar!
Anyway, I just haven’t felt any conviction, or seen any BIBLICAL reason to distinguish between the language “of men, or of angels”—but only to capture the HEART of the matter, regardless of the tongue. Jesus, Joshua, Yesu, Yeshua, Yahshua… I just don’t have any sense, BIBLICALLY, that Father is concerned. To illustrate further, consider this: What is the etymology of the word “Father”? Perhaps we should be careful to not call Him “Father” until we get it all checked out? You see what I mean. : )
Well, good question, but that’s what I’d say about it at the moment. Frankly, the internet has a LOT of folks messed up, chasing nothings, while their lives are in shambles and their fruit is questionable. The “chat rooms” and “forums” and “discussion lists” and “surfing” has a LOT of “bad company” corrupting previously “good character.” I don’t assume that any of that has anything to do with your question (it was a good question), but it just reminded me of the huge number of folks currently caught up in endless eddy currents, even to the point of confusing and frustrating some into unBelief. It’s sad. Satan is DEVIOUS with the new tool of the internet to exploit amongst the undisciplined of heart and mind. And, this topic, along with whether or not hell “consumes” or we’re “dead all over like rover” or whether the fire is never quenched in eternal torment…the confusions and foul language and nonsense and yucky teachings—that stuff is permeating the Body of Christ right now, from internet “pulpits.” Sorry to bring that up, since I’m sure that is all totally unrelated to your situation, but the sadness of this other situation just came up within me as I was pondering your question.
Well, Love in His Love…be of Good cheer, HE has overcome : )
I appreciate your response to my question about the true name of the Father. I don’t want to take up anymore of your time. But I would just like to share with you a few things. The name has been hidden by men who have replaced the name YHWH with LORD, and if you look up the word LORD in a dictionary it translates BAAL. I find it hard to believe that His people have the liberty to call Him anything we feel like.
Yahweh says in Jeremiah 23:27, “The (false prophets) think the dreams they tell one another will make them forget my NAME through BAAL.”
Jesus was translated from the name Zeus to integrate Christianity with Greek paganism. The New Testament was written in Hebrew or Aramaic but the translators replaced whatever they wanted to suit the Greeks and unfortunately anti-Semitism had already infiltrated the church. Satan accomplished his mission to hide the only name under heaven and earth by which men can be saved.
Every name of every Hebrew prophet in the scriptures means something (i.e Jeremiah, Isaiah, Joel). I find it hard to believe that Mary, a Hebrew maiden, named the Messiah a greek-latin name that has no meaning, when His true name Yahshua means, “Yahweh is Salvation.”
Jesus means, “Hey Horse.” Jesus is simply not his name. I know it is hard for people to grasp that, but tradition is usually hard to change.
Yahweh says in Exodus 23:13, “……Do not invoke the names of other gods, nor let them be heard on your lips.” I find it hard to call him Baal after I read that command.
Knowing the true name of Yahweh is just the beginning of the Holy Spirit calling His people out of pagan practices and ways and calling us back to the ancient paths.
I know you are aware of the pagan origins of Christmas and Easter. This is just another call to come out of Babylon and come to the Father in true Worship. Worshipping in Spirit and in Truth.
I pray that you will see the significance of this and not be offended…
Thanks for your time and for corresponding with me.
Hi : ) I surely take no offense, and am always glad to learn something, of course. I had, actually, heard most of that before, and have also heard ample evidence that much of it is “urban legend” rather than Truth. (For example, the “Baal” issue: you will not find such a “definition” or “translation” of “Lord” in Vines, or similar tools that I have just laid my hands on. Does the conspiracy and satanic power run so deep as to delude ALL of the translators, and all who have died for the Good News? That is a big claim.) Perhaps it is worth more investigation yet, on everyone’s part. I remain open to whatever is Right, without any difficulty whatsoever. That’s easy, and fun and rewarding! But, as we both know, there are MANY attempting to gather people around themselves with all sorts of “secret knowledge” issues these days, and a SURPRISING amount is taken in as “truth,” when it is speculation, or extrapolated illogically (and sometimes dishonestly) by those who want to “be somebody.” Many today are only taking some “expert’s” word for things, and are impressed by undocumentable “word studies” and the unfindable or questionable “ancient sources.” They often can support little to nothing of their shocking claims, when pressed. In the “popular” author and speaker circuits, Malcolm Smith and Gene Edwards do much of this. Malcolm says “this word means: __” and is OFTEN just pulling our chain. It sounds REALLY COOL, but then…it is bogus s-t-r-e-t-c-h-i-n-g of a word study, and might mean SOME of that, SOMETIMES. But it is dishonest, because it impresses us with Malcolm, and it DOES NOT “mean” this or that in some absolute way. It may only be an obscure “7th definition” in Kittel’s, not the “here’s what it means” definition that Malcolm presented. “Here’s what the Jews understood it to mean in the Ancient Hebrew, because of this or that.” Far too much sensationalism. Gene does the same thing. He makes up stories of “the way it was”—VERY frequently with only the slimmest of evidence (and that unproveable, or unavailable), sometimes even contradictory to the Scriptures. But it makes for sensational reading, at $14.95 a hit, to the gullible who count it all as true, no matter how far-fetched and undocumentable it may be. “Titus did this or that!” REALLY? How do you KNOW? “Ummmm…trust me. I’m an expert. I have sources you know not of.” And those are two of the “popularized” guys. On the “secret knowledge” circuit, there are MANY (normally with only a few scattered followers) floating around, with little to nothing to show for their lives or Work (if you were to follow them home and SEE what they are and how they Build—1Cor.3). They are empowered to get their “revelatory” message out…by the internet, since they don’t have the money machines the more popular guys have available. If they CAN, they’ll make their “secret knowledge” things that hardly anyone knows but them (plus dead heroes of the Faith that they SWEAR knew it too, but you can’t ask them, because they’re dead)…they’ll TRY LIKE DOGS to make their “special secret knowledge” things to be SALVATION ISSUES, if they POSSIBLY can. It gives them leverage, you can imagine. You know what I mean and have seen it, I’m sure. Every weird thing out there started that way. AS IF THE BLOOD, AND A LOVE AFFAIR, AND OBEDIENCE TO THE SON’S DESIRES WERE ALL INSUFFICIENT—WITHOUT THEIR SPECIAL SECRET KNOWLEDGE THAT FULFILLS US ALL. Yicky stuff. But it’s out there, en masse, sad to say.
Just on a side note, the Jeremiah passage mentioned is not even necessarily referring to anything as “external” as forgetting (intellectually) a “name” and replacing it with some other. This is not all that “logical,” since the Books of Moses were readily available to them throughout most of their existence. The TRUE issue at stake, again and again in Scripture is NOT about the external issue of spelling something right or pronouncing it right or “forgetting” in their brains. It is, rather: WHENEVER “in My Name” is in Scripture (Old Agreement or New), it means “by My [currently authorized Will and] AUTHORITY”—not a “magic word” to be said, like an Eastern “mantra” to invoke something. As crazy as it sounds, some do claim, as the “seven sons of Sceva,” along with some movements today, that “magic phrases” and the like “empower” us. The way of the Son was, instead, “not speaking anything that the Father is not currently Speaking”—“binding on earth what is currently being bound in Heaven.” THAT is doing all in the Father’s Name, or the Name of the Son, Biblically speaking.
But, all of that aside, I appreciate your zeal and desire to bring Him pleasure. A rare treat for me to see that in a person. : )
We can all keep working on it all…I’m all for that! And DO appreciate your note and the thoughts. We’ll keep pressing in, and trusting Him for Light and Liberty, with ready obedience, “on earth as it is in Heaven!” : )
Love in Christ, your brother,
PS: I’ve never been comfortable saying “lord, lord, lord” in prayer or in referring to Him (“the Lord said:”), and seldom or ever do, per se—as I find it to have been trivialized and “religionized” by most folks anyway. It is NOT a “religious” word in any “original” manuscript mere men have access to. The Portuguese translation of the word drives me nuts, too! “Mister” just doesn’t work for me! It CERTAINLY doesn’t convey the magnitude of it all. MASTER!!!!!!! Ruler of All!!! : ) Now THAT’S got a good translational ring to it!
Subject: Hey again : )
Hi Jere : ) Just a couple more thoughts regarding the topic you and I are looking at together lately… I wanted to mention first the “bigger picture” stuff—the stuff of the heart and soul. But, having done that a bit last night in the note, I thought you might like some “head” stuff too….
A brother here in the church, having looked at this stuff some time ago, was sharing some of his recollection of past considerations of the topic…..
1. Hebrew, as a spoken language, completely died out during the captivity (as Jews began to speak the languages of the countries they lived in, or variants/composites such as Yiddish in Europe). It was recreated in the early years of the Zionist movement as the language of Israel. It should be noted that while many of the Jews coming from Northern Europe spoke Yiddish, the Jews from around the Mediterranean spoke Ladino (Jewish Spanish: descended from medieval Spanish, spoken by Sephardic Jews in the Balkans, Turkey, as well as Spain, Portugal, and places around there, as I recall) and those from other places spoke Arabic and Farsi (a Persian language, Iran vicinity) etc. Hebrew is the only example of a dead language being brought back to life. That being the case, we don’t even know how ancient Hebrew words were actually pronounced! We’ve decided after the fact, centuries later, to “assign” sounds to all their letters. So we can’t pronounce anything correctly anyway, even if we tried. Even more confusing, as you know, is that ancient written Hebrew had no symbols for vowels, only consonants. So when we see something like the Hebrew equivalent of the letters YHWH, we’re GUESSING what the vowel sounds in-between the letters sounded like, on TOP of using the sounds we’ve assigned to the consonants. (This makes it incredibly difficult, perhaps dishonest—depending on one’s motives, to say that a mispronunciation, or misspelling, or a language translation, or the like—is somehow offensive to God. That doesn’t bear Biblical weight, or take into account the history of it all, properly, it would seem.)
2. BAAL is translated “Lord” in English, but so is Adonai, which is what the Jews called God instead of “Yaweh” (or however they ACTUALLY pronounced it).
3. The etymology for Jesus is pretty straightforward, being Late Latin, from Greek IEsous, from Hebrew Yeshua. No mysterious secret meaning here. It’s just Latin for Yeshua.
Now, for me : )—I didn’t really relish getting into this side of it much (and you may not want to talk about it, I’m not sure), but I felt like I’d at least say a TINY bit of why there’s a pretty strong case for the thrust of what you’d been told…being “urban legend”—rather than God’s Heart on the matter. Just a TINY bit… I wasn’t sure if you were totally aware, and considering with its appropriate full weight, that the name baal is used CONSTANTLY in the Hebrew, not just as a Canaanite false God named “Lord” or “Master” (baal, translated). This changes everything, to know that the word “baal” is a BIBLICAL, honorable word to GOD—and is only a description of a false God in certain situations. If the Canaanites chose to use that word, it does not negate the way GOD used the word, of course. It is NOT a “satanic” name or word at all! (“Gay” means more than one thing, also, of course.) It DOES mean “Lord” or “Master” or “Ruler”—in the GOOD SENSE—frequently in the Hebrew Bible. That totally messes up the “urban legend” logic and thrust that calling God “Lord” is inherently evil or satanic, or a plot. (It is a synonym, acceptable to God—though I don’t care for it so much, as I shared yesterday!—of words like “owner” and “master” and “ruler” (whether Kurios in the NT, or Adonai or something else in the OT).
The word “baal”—whether OT or NT—is NEUTRAL, and describes SECULAR issues of ownership or authority, as well as God’s. GOD uses “baal” to describe companions in covenant with Abraham (Gen.14:13—allied with Abraham, “‘baals’ of Abraham”), and Joseph as a “baal-dreamer” (“Master of dreams,” Gen.37:19). One may be a baal-archer (“expert archer”)!!! Is that “evil”? No way. That is a misinterpretation of the word, which is NOT a pagan, satanic description, OBVIOUSLY. GOD, OUR GOD, used it to describe a family situation.
Any married man is a baal of the family (15 times in the OT), and a man may be a baal of a house, or a baal of an animal (Exo.22:7, 22:10, Isa. 1:3)……etc etc etc. Are all married men, archers, dreamers, land owners, and animal owners “FALSE gODS” because they are called (by the real God!) with the name “baal”??? Clearly, the thrust and “facts” that were presented to you about the conspiracy are seemingly fallacious, for this and other reasons. The whole discussion is based on the premise that “baal” is a false god’s name, rather than simply the HEBREW word for master, or lord, or ruler, or owner, or covenant partner. It has NO automatic inclination to be a “religious” word, let alone the name of a false god. That’s a big deal, when this subject is considered. See what I mean? And that is not to yet address the even FURTHER legitimacy of the word “lord”—in our language.
Well, enough of the human brain stuff. The other letter was much more important, but I felt I owed you a TINY bit of this sort of thing too. : ) Do with it as you please, but my sense is that someone is throwing some stuff at you that is ill-conceived and way outside of Apostolic balance. Again, if you’re wanting to talk more about it, I’m game. : ) I am TOTALLY serious when I say, again, that I have been VERY glad to change innumerable things over the years, and don’t ever intend to stop! I just look for Truth and Apostolic balance (what do I see emphasized by those who are the Foundation Stones, immersed in the Chief Cornerstone?)—what they EMPHASIZE, I shall—and what is presented today with an emphasis that is way outside of theirs, is error by virtue of its EMPHASIS, even if elements of it are valuable and should be retained. In this case, it does not seem Spiritual, OR even logical, or in Balance with Apostolic Life and Truth—from what I’m seeing so far. BUT, if there’s more you need to say, I remain your friend and the lover of your soul and His Truths, so “I’m with ya!”
Love in His Love,
Jere, I guess some urban legend that doesn’t hold up under scrutiny, some valid thoughts, some not seeming to be, but……IF you were right about some of this, the Fruit would be there in your world: of the Bride making herself ready as a City set on a Hill, in your environment. I don’t know for certain what your life and family and town are like—whether the Son is manifesting Himself in Power and Light and Love, changing lives, empowering, enlivening in His Church, NOT hidden under a bushel basket “THIS is how all men will know!” These are MARKS of Truth, DEMONSTRATION and PROOF of legitimacy of God’s Spirit’s confirmation. What say ye? What do people see there, in your world, day to day? Is the Bride, a cohesive, “contending as One man,” “joined and knit together by every supporting ligament,” “Remove the leaven from the batch,” “Called-alongside one another daily, as long as it’s called today, so that NONE may be hardened and deceived” LIFE OF JESUS kind of daily Life in a visible church? Is there Confirmation of these things as from God, in His Bride’s Life set free to look like Him, together? I am just looking, exactly as I said, and as I always will (whether it is a “music artist” or “teacher” or whatever one claims to have “special”) for indisputable Marks of legitimacy. We BOTH KNOW there are 30 million different flavors of head games, numeric games, diversions, eddy currents, conspiracy theories, obsessions, and hobbies.
About only having the Greek texts. I am saying could it be that the Father allowed this to happen to see if His people would take counsel from the whole Word of Yahweh (Old Testament and New) and rightly divide His truth, not throwing out the Law and the Prophets as most Christians have done.
Yahshua spoke in parables so “That the people would NOT understand the secrets of the Kingdom.”
Besides evil man has tried to destroy everything Hebrew from day one. Manuscripts were burned and destroyed constantly. Anti-semitism is the root of the Evil one.
But that’s another topic to chew on some other day.
Thanks again for corresponding to me.
WOW! Are you REALLY comfortable with this? Isn’t it akin to putting your thoughts about certain issues above God’s Desire and Power to protect His Word??!! That is getting WAY out there, if that’s what it is, wouldn’t you agree? Do you know how many (JW’S, Koresh, Mohammed, Mr. Mormon himself, and others) have started in this same place, more or less—the insufficiency of Scripture, or the errancy of Scriptures and translations and manuscripts? Some folks on the East coast I know are prepared to take this course in order to establish that domineering women are okay with God, and that Moses and Paul were chauvinists. Gays say the same about Scriptures and translations they find offensive. Are you comfortable with this? This is LARGE! Or am I not understanding? COULDN’T Father have used “Roman Roads” and “Greek Language” to make His Words available to all? Isn’t that POSSIBLE? And they are INTACT? The “church fathers” have recorded 70%+ of the NT in their letters of the first two centuries, without contradictions to the Text, as you are (seemingly?) suggesting. THEY had no problem quoting it, or using the Greek, nor did they ever imply that there were any conspiracies regarding all of this. And they were certainly not “anti-Semitic” en total. Are you SURE you want to take this course, or am I not understanding yet what you are suggesting? (That’s very possible! : ) )