Some Dialogue With a "King James Translation" ONLY Guy...

1/4/2001

Greetings and God’s peace to you. Thank you for all the tapes, books, and treatises; the package arrived yesterday. There’s a lot of material!

I would like to talk about Bible versions, though. Almost all modern English Bibles are translated from the works of unbelieving anti-Christs, specifically B.F. Westcott and Anthony Hort. They did not believe in the Divinity of Christ, for one thing. For example, look for 1 John 5:7-8 in your modern English Bible. If it’s in there, there is probably a disclaimer in the notes that it is not found in “better” or “older” manuscripts. There are many such deliberate omissions and subtle alterations in the works of Westcott and Hort. The NIV and the NASB both omit it from the text, explaining that their omission in the footnotes is based on newer, better scholarship.

Consider the warning in Revelation 22:18-19: “For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.”

As serious Christians in pursuit of God’s Truth, you will want to fully investigate this matter.

Yours as ever in Christ,

Tommy

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Hi Tommy, no doubt there are many flaws in every translation I’ve seen to date. EVERY single one. I actually do look myself at the best translations of various texts and add my own corrections (or others’) in many cases, for inclusion in what we write and send out from here via Email or whatever. It does matter that God be represented accurately, and I seriously doubt that anyone could do the quality of Work that they can or should do for the Master—unless they are aware of the fallacies that you mention which are scattered throughout every single translation. (I have probably thirty here, as well as several different Greek renditions and the Latin Vulgate, and even other modern languages do a good job with some things.) While the Scripture in Revelation 22 doesn’t refer to perfect versus imperfect translations, but rather violations of Truth and misrepresenting God as a result, this creates a dilemma, since as you know, the “perfect” translation can NEVER exist. Many pronouns and expressions often have different meanings in different contexts, and we are always only making our own best judgment as to what it SHOULD be translated as, in order to communicate the “perfect” meaning. In addition, the “word pictures” of the Koine are difficult, in that a verbatim “translation” does NOT convey the actual intent of the Writer in many cases. SO, it is just essential to not be gullible or lazy, and seek God as we desire to communicate Him and His Ways to others, eh?

Much grace is needed for us all!

Love in Christ,

P.S. What is YOUR favorite translation? Love to hear about it, and have it if I don’t already!

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Re: Bible Translations : )

Hi, thank you for your kind and loving reply. I just finished reading the pamphlet on “Convictions” and was “convicted.” : ) I pray that I can convey my concerns on the matter of Bible versions with brotherly love and affections in Christ.

Nevertheless, I do feel rather strongly about Bible versions, and that God can and has given us His word in a few English translations that are reliable, and even perfect, in the sense that they are complete, undiminished, and properly rendered. I do not believe that some nuances can only be discerned if one is conversant in Hebrew and Koine Greek. Can it be that the Holy Spirit provided the faithful, believing copiers and translators, some of whom were brutally martyred, with English renderings that correctly reflect the nuances of His original in the ancient languages? Consider Psalm 12:6-7: “The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.”

If the “scholars” are correct that we do not have the “word” of God, but just a whole bunch of scraps here and there, and we must leave it to the “scribes” to correctly assemble all these scraps and give us their best guesses as to which ones are the “oldest” or “more reliable,” then God was unable to keep His promise to preserve His Words “from this generation for ever.”

Can it be that God has worked another miracle in assuring the accurate, complete, “perfect,” if you will, transmission of His word through the ages and to provide “perfect” translations to any language He wills?

Is it possible that we do not discern the correct idioms and nuances of language because of our unfamiliarity with our own language and its history?

Why would God make it necessary for you to maintain over thirty different translations, running back and forth among them to try to discern what His will is? Which one do you memorize from (Psalm 119:11)? Is God the Author of all this confusion?

The Greek New Testament and Old Testament Septuagint compiled by Westcott and Hort are rife with deletions and subtle variations that undermine the deity of Christ, the literal six day creation, the Noahic flood, and many other important doctrines too numerous to mention in this note. Bibles based on the works of these men have been subtly shifted to be more compliant with the views of Charles Darwin and Karl Marx.

The only English Bible I trust is the Authorized Version, also known as the King James Version. This Bible was based upon the Received Text (Textus Receptus) New Testament and the Masoretic Hebrew Old Testament. The text of the Authorized Version is not copyrighted. Who would dare to copyright God’s Word? The NIV, NASB, TLB, Amplified Bible, and the other Westcott&Hort-based bibles are all copyrighted.

The only other Bibles of which I am aware that are based on the Received Text and Masoretic texts, the KJ21, the Modern King James, the Tyndale Bible, and the Geneva Bible.

Two books I can recommend, if you wish to pursue this.

Which Bible?

edited by Otis Fuller, D.D.

ISBN—2

A scholarly compilation of histories, dissertations, and treatises by learned and devoted men of God concerning the Bible Version controversy.

The Pilgrim Church

E.H. Broadbent

ISBN—4

An excellent history of the persecuted church through the ages. E.H. Broadbent compiled these histories from the remnant writings of the saints dwelling in scattered enclaves, pursued and tormented by the ruling Roman, Eastern, pagan, and even “Protestant” hegemonies.

Love in Christ,

Tommy

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Hi Tommy... thanks. : ) Actually, I’ve read both of the books you mentioned. I’d have to disagree that the King James (authorized by the purportedly homosexual, King James) is perfect either. It just doesn’t “cut it” in a number of places. HOWEVER, it is very good, by comparison to most, for sure.

Too, I should mention that I don’t “run back and forth between translations”—I simply love to pursue Jesus in His Word. He thrills me. And the different translations do actually all catch some good things, that others do not. For example, just to use a simple example or two, “church,” “apostle,” “deacon,” and “baptism” are virtually never handled properly, including in the King James. Virtually every one of those words is mistranslated, or NOT translated—which misrepresents God by its neglect and the hidden deception of allowing people to think of the word in the way that their culture pushes upon them—rather than what GOD actually said.

SO, I totally share your desire that God be well-represented and perfectly understood! AND, by His Spirit, He’s pretty good at making sure that what Who Jesus actually is, and “all things” He taught (either personally, or through His chosen and Word) are brought into remembrance and made clear “to all who obey.” (Acts 5:32; John 7, 8)

WHICH brings up an interesting point, you know?! : ) MOST people will not OBEY much of what they DO know God said! Perfect knowledge is of no value without OBEDIENCE “to everything I COMMANDED you”—and THAT is the rub most places I’ve seen!

Oh well... Thanks for writing, and, again, I do share your desire that we consume Pure Bread! Thanks for that........

In Him,

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Re: Bible Translations : )

Well, please bear with your weaker brother while I go through my KJV-only stage. : ) I just can’t bring myself to trust the other compilers and translators at this time, since some of the stuff I’ve seen has me concerned, and there is some confusion there, at least for me.

Though James may have authorized the formation of a translation committee to provide a common English Bible, it appears that the translators operated independently from the king, and even the Church of England. The “authorized” translators apparently borrowed very much from the work of William Tyndale, a martyr who was still hated and reviled by most of the established English clergy. The letter to the king written by the translators borders on an apology, and, if I remember correctly, some of the translators were reviled in turn, losing positions of influence and authority as a consequence of their involvement and the remarkable resemblance their work bore to the work of Tyndale.

While I have heard the aspersion that James was a homosexual, I have never seen one whit of evidence to support this claim. And if such evidence exists, it must be verifiable and corroborated. Furthermore, why are my sins any less an abomination than the sins of James? I don’t know if he was a believer, but what does that have to do with the work of the men who were believers (or became believers as a result of their work) and risked everything to bring about an English translation even as English was about to emerge as the world’s dominant language?

True enough I’m far from perfect in implementing what I do understand, so I should probably pay more diligence to “perform the doing of it” (2 Corinthians 8:11). I just want to be sure that I understand what “it” is and that “it” is truly the Word of God. I am weak in that way, brother, and I ask your indulgence of me as I seek to know God better. Your reliance on other versions does not diminish your fervent desire to help me know the fullness of Christ, and for that I am truly thankful to our God through Jesus Christ. Indeed, I have a long, long, long way to go.

I look forward to devouring the material you sent me. Thanks again for all the readings and the tapes. God’s peace and blessings to you all out there in Indiana.

A weak pilgrim praying that God’s strength be made perfect in my weakness,

Tommy

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P.S. Steven Mansfield, a “known” church history so-called scholar, is the one that mentioned Jimmy’s homosexuality for the first time in my hearing—and it is virtually impossible that he would have mentioned it without evidence. That is FAR from his style. And, that sin of his is no less or more dangerous than the sins of those involved in the other translation errors—true. Perhaps that is partially the cause of those very obvious, indisputable errors that I mentioned in the KJV.

But, as I said, I do appreciate many things about the KJV, regardless of what his sins were, or the flawed brothers (in addition to the children of the devil) that worked on that translation. SO, off to beddie-bye! Good night again! It’s late for you too! GO TO BED! Enjoyed your note.....

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Re: Bible Translations : )

Blessings and peace to you brother. Thank you for your understanding and kindness. I have not heard of Steven Mansfield. Maybe I’ll search out his works after I get through all the material I have stacked by my bedside.

I am concerned that if all translations are flawed, then how can we know that we have the Word of God before us as we read? Where is the keeping of His promise to us to preserve His Word forever? And how do we countenance the gainsayers who bring up this issue saying all we have is a collection of myths in ancient and dead languages whose source documents disagree among themselves and whose translations vary wildly in order to support the agendas of the ruling hegemonies and dominant philosophies of the time of the translation?

We do have this promise from 1 John 2:27, “But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.”

Pray for me, dear brother, that I would receive the Word with all readiness of mind, and search the scriptures daily, whether those things are so.

Yours in Christ’s love,

Tommy

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Hi Tommy! YOU’RE SEEING IT NOW! YES, that promise you quoted below is FABULOUS and TRUSTWORTHY!!!!!!!!! It is the same Hope and Guarantee that the folks had for FOURTEEN CENTURIES before the printing press put ANY translation into the hands of 98% of those that called themselves Christians—it IS the New Covenant that He “writes on our Hearts and Minds” and we will “all KNOW Him, from the least to the greatest”!! The “great and precious promise” is that HE LIVES! And HE LIVES IN US, that we could be “partakers of the Divine Nature!” What is our “hope of Glory?” Issues of translations... or something one million times more potent and all consuming and safe??!! “CHRIST IN YOU—THE HOPE OF GLORY!!!” How else is there ANY hope?? Even IF we could find the “perfect” translation, who has the PERFECT MIND to deal with it?

How many who embrace only a “particular” translation still DISAGREE as to whether or not there is a rapture at the end of time, or before that, or before a tribulation, or after? EVEN if there WERE a “perfect” English language translation as opposed to the NEW COVENANT LIFE and HOPE of a “COUNSELOR OF THE SAME KIND” (the Greek description by Jesus, regarding the Holy Spirit, another error of the KJV in its omission)... EVEN IF THERE WERE that “perfect” English translation, there are STILL MASSIVE DIVIDES (and pitifully unSpiritual men). How could this be, if the solution is REALLY “a perfect translation”? Because that is NOT the Covenant ANYWAY!! We can TRUST Him to carry us through what imperfections there may be, by homosexuals or other bad boys. THEY WILL NOT, CAN NOT, TAKE AWAY JESUS’ PROMISE TO BRING US HOME, BY HIS SPIRIT, BLOOD AND WORD!

So, rest easy. The “gainsayers” are losers because of what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 2—the unspiritual man CANNOT UNDERSTAND, it is FOOLISHNESS to him. Their futility of thinking and darkened understanding are the result of their rebellion, not their flawed translation. Because they have no pure heart, good conscience, or sincere faith, they don’t know what they’re talking about, or what they so confidently affirm. The Father has “HIDDEN it from them,” according to Jesus—NOT because of a flawed translation, but because of their hard hearts. TRUTH is SUPERNATURALLY discerned, not intellectually!!!! “Who can ascend God’s Holy Hill?” Those with good translations and keen intellectual skills? Nope. It’s a SPIRITUALLY discerned thing, by the Seed of the Word in a “good and honest heart,” and the Interpretation and Explanation and Application of the Risen Christ, by His Spirit. THAT is the New Covenant. He takes our hearts of stone and softens them as we call on His name in our poverty and brokenness. And the MESSIAH gallops on His White Horse, Faithful and True... to our side to heal us and make us whole. He is WAY beyond the confines of our minds, or reading skills, a flaw on mistranslating the word “baptism”—HE IS IS IS IS THE WORD!!!

Well.......... Love and Grace to you....... ENJOY THE JOURNEY!

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Thanks for the response. I found myself saying AMEN! to the whole thing. Indeed, His law, His covenant, is written on our hearts.

Shortly after my conversion, I remember asking the preacher about the seven horns and the seven spirits of God in Revelation. His response was to ask me if I was going to live that verse today. He clarified by saying in so many words that God wants us to LIVE His Word, and if He wants to reveal to me the deeper mysteries, He will do so in His time and according to my preparation and obedience. Indeed, to know Christ is not an intellectual exercise, not to say that it doesn’t exercise the intellect, but that it is led by His Spirit. I am reminded of the passage in Acts 17 where Paul visits the Areopagus and deals with the epicureans and stoics.

And then there is Titus 3:9, “But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.”

We have been enjoying this journey for just over ten years, now. It has been incredible, one miracle after another. But first, God had to break me and bring me to the lowest point in my life. The words of the hymn “Each Step I Take” articulate well our experience in this pilgrim way. From time to time, God has to break me a little more, but He is so gentle and patient. How kind and loving He is, while yet being unmovable. My heart yearns to become the kind of father to my children that He has been to me. Pray for me in this also, that I may be unmovable, yet loving and kind to my children.

Incidentally, in your leaflet on prayer, I loved the analogy to calling some strong men together to push a truck stuck in the mud. It was a blessing! Thank you! Please call some of the “big fellas” back there in Indiana to help us get our pilgrim “truck” out of the “mud” of the traditions of men.

As ever, our prayers for God’s peace.

Yours in Christ,

Tommy